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Video games as art Anonymous 01/10/2025 (Fri) 09:17:44 Id: 75b412 No. 1059497
It's been 12 years since Roger Ebert said video games can never be art. Was Ebert wrong? Where, below, did Ebert go wrong? What is art? Can video games be art? What video games are art? >Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool’s errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say “never,” because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form. >What stirs me to return to the subject? I was urged by a reader, Mark Johns, to consider a video of a TED talk given at USC by Kellee Santiago, a designer and producer of video games. I did so. I warmed to Santiago immediately. She is bright, confident, persuasive. But she is mistaken. >I propose to take an unfair advantage. She spoke extemporaneously. I have the luxury of responding after consideration. If you want to follow along, I urge you to watch her talk, which is embedded below. It’s only 15 minutes long, and she makes the time pass quickly. >She begins by saying video games “already ARE art.” Yet she concedes that I was correct when I wrote, “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.” To which I could have added painters, composers, and so on, but my point is clear. >Then she shows a slide of a prehistoric cave painting, calling it “kind of chicken scratches on walls,” and contrasts it with Michelangelo’s ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Her point is that while video games may be closer to the chicken scratch end of the spectrum, I am foolish to assume they will not evolve. >She then says speech began as a form of warning, and writing as a form of bookkeeping, but they evolved into storytelling and song. Actually, speech probably evolved into a form of storytelling and song long before writing was developed. And cave paintings were a form of storytelling, perhaps of religion, and certainly of the creation of beauty from those chicken-scratches Werner Herzog is even now filming in 3-D. >Herzog believes, in fact, that the paintings on the wall of the Cave of Chauvet-Pont-d’Arc in Southern France should only be looked at in the context of the shadows cast on those dark walls by the fires built behind the artists, which suggests the cave paintings, their materials of charcoal and ochre and all that went into them were the fruition of a long gestation, not the beginning of something–and that the artists were enormously gifted. They were great artists at that time, geniuses with nothing to build on, and were not in the process of becoming Michelangelo or anyone else. Any gifted artist will tell you how much he admires the “line” of those prehistoric drawers in the dark, and with what economy and wit they evoked the animals they lived among. >Santiago concedes that chess, football, baseball and even mah jong cannot be art, however elegant their rules. I agree. But of course that depends on the definition of art. She says the most articulate definition of art she’s found is the one in Wikipedia: “Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.” This is an intriguing definition, although as a chess player I might argue that my game fits the definition. >Plato, via Aristotle, believed art should be defined as the imitation of nature. Seneca and Cicero essentially agreed. Wikipedia believes “Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas…Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.” >But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn’t start dancing all at once. >One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them. >She quotes Robert McKee’s definition of good writing as “being motivated by a desire to touch the audience.” This is not a useful definition, because a great deal of bad writing is also motivated by the same desire. I might argue that the novels of Cormac McCarthy are so motivated, and Nicholas Sparks would argue that his novels are so motivated. But when I say McCarthy is “better” than Sparks and that his novels are artworks, that is a subjective judgment, made on the basis of my taste (which I would argue is better than the taste of anyone who prefers Sparks). >Santiago now phrases this in her terms: “Art is a way of communicating ideas to an audience in a way that the audience finds engaging.” Yet what ideas are contained in Stravinsky, Picasso, “Night of the Hunter,” “Persona,” “Waiting for Godot,” “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock?” Oh, you can perform an exegesis or a paraphrase, but then you are creating your own art object from the materials at hand. >Kellee Santiago has arrived at this point lacking a convincing definition of art. But is Plato’s any better? Does art grow better the more it imitates nature? My notion is that it grows better the more it improves or alters nature through an passage through what we might call the artist’s soul, or vision. Countless artists have drawn countless nudes. They are all working from nature. Some of there paintings are masterpieces, most are very bad indeed. How do we tell the difference? We know. It is a matter, yes, of taste. >Santiago now supplies samples of a video game named “Waco Resurrection” (above), in which the player, as David Koresh, defends his Branch Davidian compound against FBI agents. The graphics show the protagonist exchanging gunfire with agents according to the rules of the game. Although the player must don a Koresh mask and inspire his followers to play, the game looks from her samples like one more brainless shooting-gallery. >“Waco Resurrection” may indeed be a great game, but as potential art it still hasn’t reached the level of chicken scratches, she defends the game not as a record of what happened at Waco, but “as how we feel happened in our culture and society.” Having seen the 1997 documentary “Waco: The Rules of Engagement,” I would in contrast award the game a Fail in this category. The documentary made an enormous appeal to my senses and emotions, although I am not proposing it as art. >Her next example is a game named “Braid” (above). This is a game “that explores our own relationship with our past…you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there’s one key difference…you can’t die.” You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game. She also admires a story told between the games levels, which exhibits prose on the level of a wordy fortune cookie. >We come to Example 3, “Flower” (above). A run-down city apartment has a single flower on the sill, which leads the player into a natural landscape. The game is “about trying to find a balance between elements of urban and the natural.” Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn’t say. Do you win if you’re the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? Does the game know what the ideal balance is? >These three are just a small selection of games, she says, “that crossed that boundary into artistic expression.” IMHO, that boundary remains resolutely uncrossed. “Braid” has had a “great market impact,” she says, and “was the top-downloaded game on XBox Live Arcade.” All of these games have received “critical acclaim.” >Now she shows stills from early silent films such as George Melies’ “A Voyage to the Moon” (1902), which were “equally simplistic.” Obviously, I’m hopelessly handicapped because of my love of cinema, but Melies seems to me vastly more advanced than her three modern video games. He has limited technical resources, but superior artistry and imagination. >These days, she says, “grown-up gamers” hope for games that reach higher levels of “joy, or of ecstasy….catharsis.” These games (which she believes are already being made) “are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures.” The only way I could experience joy or ecstasy from her games would be through profit participation. >The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.” >Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care. >Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Then let them say it, if it makes them happy. >I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.
>geriatric puritan who shat on movies for having adult content and probably believed that vaccines cause autism once said video games are le bad to quote Guybrush, big whoop the lesson i’d like everyone who reads this to learn - because, as much as this quote gets talked about on image boards, people don’t seem to take new things away from it - is that people like Roger say things like this with the primary purpose of belittling and psychologically abusing people like us, who they see through a proxy of autism/conservatism/bad nerd stereotypes, and thus construct long, intricate arguments against our hobbies which we are also taught to think sound smart, but are ultimately meaningless, because the only reason they exist is because they need a satisfying way to bully us but are too pussy to just go mask off and kill us everyone who fucks with you knows exactly what they’re doing at all times. do not ever have any mercy for people like Roger
>>1059497 Lol who cares about art? Who cares about critics. Who cares about labeled as "art"? Video games are its own thing let it be its own. Seeking validation from others is first step towards self-destruction of self
>>1059498 >do not ever have any mercy for people like Roger God/Fate didn't, he spent the last years of his life having no lower jaw due to mouth cancer (apparently Mr. Critic didn't think what a lifetime of cigars would do.)
>>1059500 tell me about the black man. why doesn't he read?
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Video games can have artistic merit as visuals make up an important part of the medium, although it's essentially the Japanese who still understand there is this harmony (with gameplay, sound work, etc.) to respect in order to make a good/fun game. Westerners continue to sniff their own asses by spouting a diarrhea of words to sound themselves smart and cultured like in the OP (no hard feelings OP).
>>1059502 >tell me about the black man. why doesn't he read? He's a nigger. A NIGGER!
>>1059503 >Westerners continue to sniff their own asses by spouting a diarrhea of words to sound themselves smart and cultured like in the OP (no hard feelings OP). Roger Ebert wrote that greentext. Roger Ebert isn't OP, ESL-anon. Roger Ebert is dead.
>>1059507 Hence why I said "no hard feelings OP" as I'm well aware he wasn't the one who wrote that wall of text although that doesn't mean he can't bear similar opinions on the matter. And at the end of the day, a video game remains a product meant to be sold to the public. Again something the Japanese understands from the get-go.
>>1059504 >>1059502 He doesn't read lol cuz he's dancing, rather than passively consuming art. He's performing art, reveling in it, channeling in his body. Rather than wasting time contemplating 100 paragraphs of semantics, arguments and "reasons" about whether something is art or not. He chose to create it within himself, away from those "it NEEDS MORE to qualify as art" sounding critics. And in a flash of defiance, shook his entire body in wanton abandonment, broke his spine in three places, freed himself from the shackles of appearing presentable, dignified, or logical, and said to those who questioned him - "didn't read lol"
>>1059509 >Fucking up >Won't own up to it Lol. Some do sniff their own asses spouting a diarrhea of words to sound smart, but Westerners do it less. Stupid countries and stupid races with inferiority complexes do it more. Westerners still can, and Ebert does.
>>1059500 Also >Video games are its own thing let it be its own. Seeking validation from others is first step towards self-destruction of self nice quote
>>1059511 >Some do sniff their own asses spouting a diarrhea of words to sound smart, but Westerners do it less. Stupid countries and stupid races with inferiority complexes do it more. Westerners still can, and Ebert does. White Westerners, not Westerners. Because >stupid races with inferiority complexes are Westerners now. Like Amerimutts, or Canada becoming India.
>>1059513 Good morning, excuse you sir, I am Canada, real white sir, it is my native. I do timepass while mugging up as Canada give exam (I student, doing the needful education). Prepone your judgment and revert back after give updation to belief. Thank you sir.
>>1059515 >Johndeep Moosehunter
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>>1059511 >>Fucking up ??? And yes, there is this weird mentality (almost an obsession should I say) of over-analyzing things amongst people who like to prop up themselves as intellectuals, not to mention this is often a requirement in art theory courses. I also suspect the whole argument of "videogames being art" is born from individuals having a complex over liking videogames (a nerdy and childish hobby) so they need to elevate the medium to greater heights to make it sound more adult-like somehow. This is another thing you won't see in Japan as the medium is far more normalized and accepted there.
>>1059522 >whole argument of "videogames being art" is born from individuals having a complex over liking videogames (a nerdy and childish hobby) so they need to elevate the medium to greater heights to make it sound more adult-like somehow. Kinda yes, especially kotaku ign game journalists. Does someone have that greentext screencap of a post around a games journalist in a critics journo party, where other journalists brag about reviewing movies, painting, operas, and the game journo says "i review video games". And others laugh and snicker asking "so how's mario doing?", and the journo quitely leaves the party?
Games contain art, but themselves aren't art. Not in the sense that most people consider art to be. If they are an art at all, they are art in the sense of a martial art - or a craft art. The art arises from user-interaction, as a showcase of skill and mastery over the mechanics programmed into it, and it can only manifest with a skilled player. You can't just passively observe the game and get anything out of it. You have to put into it as much, if not more, than you get out of it. Even without a mastery of skill, there have been times where I've played games and had a sort of "transcendental" experience. Where your mind just goes into a clear and placid - almost meditative - state, and your fingers move of their own accord on pure subconscious instinct. And when it's over, the mix of dopamine and adrenaline is a sort of high all it's own. It moves you, both as an observer and a piece of the artwork itself, moreso than any cheese munching, fart sniffing, and wine quaffing shithead will ever get out of "interpreting" a movie, painting, or opera. And that's precisely why so many journalist types hate games, because they have no mastery and don't have the time or talent to develop that mastery, and become a part of the manifestation of the true art of games - the delicate ballet of a skilled developer and skilled player. It locks them out of the experience, and is so outside of their experiences taught by traditional arts in their community collages that even if they were to experience it - they'd have no framework by which to even describe the experience to the uninitiated. They just want a self-contained object that they can interpret from an outside and "objective" perspective, and which can easily be encapsulated in a 300 word article which will get them paid while also inflating their ego by being the self-appointed expert who dictates to you what the game "means".
>>1059522 > I also suspect the whole argument of "videogames being art" is born from individuals having a complex over liking videogames (a nerdy and childish hobby) so they need to elevate the medium to greater heights to make it sound more adult-like somehow. The closest origin I can find to this idea is the mid-90's Congressional hearings. Claiming that "Games are Art" was an easy and fairly solid defense against regulation - since it touched on matters of free expression. Largely, it was just copied from the same playbook that had been used by the Movie and Music industry in their own defense against the moral crusades. And it largely worked, albeit with the caveat of self-regulation via ESRB ratings systems (which were redundant since many companies already had their own ratings systems). Then people forgot that it was all just a defense against censorshit, and started believing their own bullshit about games being some kind of an artform.
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>>1059497 >Was Ebert wrong? Yes >Where, below, did Ebert go wrong? Even starting the argument >What is art? Everything >Can video games be art? If everything is art, yes >What video games are art? All of them >>1059500 >Video games are its own thing let it be its own. Seeking validation from others is first step towards self-destruction of self Agree >>1059522 >This is another thing you won't see in Japan as the medium is far more normalized and accepted there. I disagree when you look at statements and actions made by developers like Miyamoto, Yu Suzuki, Mr. Soccerugy, Kojima, and Con Man. The Japanese can be just as guilty as Western people. >>1059524 Anon, this has always gone on. I'm currently reading a book by Donald Keene called Appreciation Of Japanese Culture, where he attempts to explain the various aspects of the Japanese arts and philsophies, their developments, and how they play into "modern" (The book was originally written in the 70's) Japanese thought. And one of the things he's often brings up is how Western intellectuals in general have always been quick to dismiss and hate Japanese culture because they find their elements to be too simplistic or gaudy compared to even the Chinese, about everything from the zen gardens to the Nou dramas. And how they only ever "appreciated" works and aspects that are distinctly "Un-Japanese". Now, you can personally think that or not as a opinion (You are the only person who can actually say what you find to be in good/bad taste), but the striking running theme seems to be that intellectuals make universal declarations because they consider themselve to be the "experts" on what defines "good taste". Ironically showing in the process just how bigotted and biased they actuallly are. And from what I've seen, societies seem to be increasingly reaching the point where those experts are losing control.
>>1059497 Nigger, you ask if vidya is art but don't even define what art is. Useless thread.
>>1059602 Ok, I won't wait until someone tries to come with a wall of text about what art is, so I'll answer it. Art is selective recreation of reality based on the artist's value. >>1059600 >What is art? >Everything Then nothing is art. It's the same shit as saying everything is important.
>>1059603 >Then nothing is art. It's the same shit as saying everything is important. That's because everything IS important. The question is not and should not be if something is "important" or is something is "art".The question SHOULD be is this "good" art or "bad", and is something of great importance or much closer to being unimportant. To go to a great extreme, breathing is certainly important, but you consider it to be a relatively unimportant activity.
>>1059510 based black man
>the culmination of all artistic endeavors all in one product >drawing, music, cinematography, animation, art style, sound design, story telling, world building, architecture and design, basically any and all creative effort imaginable, and then unique key aspects to the medium such as interactivity and game design >coupled with the technical acumen humanity has available, the end result of dozen thousand years in alchemy and the material sciences to get electricity in rocks to think for us, and then the almost mystical task of rearranging them to imagine a unique simulation >pretty much THE PRODUCT that maximizes the absolute intellectual effort possible that humanity could input on a single object >definitely not art, trust me I'll always agree that games are to be fun first, but to say they are not art is awfully diminutive of the herculean effort that all fronts take to produce a single high quality game, and any time one of those aforementioned categories is bad in a game it really shows, making all of it crucial. The issue arises when art niggers focus entirely on the art aspect and believe their games have to be "statements" or bring a message, a meaning, and not products. The Sistine Chapel's arts are products, in the sense that they fit their surrounding and have a clear motif, they are not "statements on divinity" or anything pretentious like that shit, they just are what they have to be. Art niggers treat the fact games are arts as an opportunity to be a unique snowflake that tries to make a statement, but if your statement is shit of course your art is shit as well, so it's not surprising that their games are also shit, they break away from the main focus of having a game be enjoyable to interact with, much like a bad drawing is art but is not enjoyable because it is bad for the primary sense you use to consume it, your fucking vision.
>>1059500 Current society seeks too much validation, it might be the worst in this aspect through story.
>>1059605 >That's because everything IS important Your mom is important for me. Importance is subjective. If you're dying of thirst in a desert, you'd give all your life's money for a bottle of cold water. If you're safe and sound in your home, you wouldn't pay a dime for it.
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>>1059497 Art is contemplative Vidyas are interactive. Simple.
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Ebert is a faggot that sucked niggercock until his final breath. His ""opinions"" gave birth to an entire cabal of niggercattle that were so insecure about the things they enjoyed being seen as just "children's toys" by their boomer parents and contemporaries that they're now making the same soulless TV Award shows and wrapping them wholesale in the same corporate micromanagement bloodsucking that their braindead parents sold their souls to.
I tend to blow off his argument because if you use Chris Crawford's definition of a game, he mentions off the bat: "Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty and entertainment if it’s made for money." And by that definition, nearly everything he's criticizing is not art. That does bring up a counterquestion, are freeware games art?
Video games can by art, but most 'art' games fail at this. >aesthetic vistas >linear writing >cutscenes >music Other mediums can do these things better than games. A peak art game should be focusing on things that only games can do.
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>I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case. I didn't always agree with Ebert's opinions on film, or even everything he said here, but this is so utterly fucking vicious. Jesus Christ. If you actually know gamedevs you know how blown the fuck out they'd feel over this quote.
>>1059638 I retract what I said about Ebert
<posted too early That said, my opinion on the "are games art" question is that it's a fruitless discussion. Art means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, "Art" is a wishy-washy, high subjective term; the postmodernists will tell you everything is art, the Marxists will tell you art is propaganda that's effective, the stoics will tell you true art is only that which embodies the good, the conservatives will tell you art is that which is beautiful and moral, the liberals will tell you conservatives can't make art. These people are obviously talking about different things, trying to appeal to "art" becomes meaningless without context. Of course, when people say this about games they're trying to appeal to a very specific group - the high art crowd. The art critics, the collectors, the broadway goers, the people write in magazines about their interpretations of old Soviet films. I don't know why they're trying to suck up to those people, what they get out of "art" has no relation to what gamers enjoy about video games. They don't care about mechanics or systems, and games have such generally inept and surface level stories they'd have no interest in dissecting them. The people who argue about games being art just want approval from a group they think are intelligent and cultured, they have no authentic interest in art themselves otherwise they wouldn't be begging for validation.
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>>1059627 >Ebert is a faggot that sucked niggercock until his final breath. Huh, and I thought he just had mouthaids or something, but it turns out his jaw was btfo by repeated cultural enrichment.
>this dumb shit again Video games are art, but that doesn't mean they all have the same value, same as any other kind of art medium.
>>1059650 Imagine walking up behind him, grabbing his floppy chin and giving him atomic wedgie with his own face.
>>1059650 >Be me >Roger Ebert >viaua gae wuah ngaah mauh auuh
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>>1059622 If I'm contemplating STALKERs amazing vistas with it's moody songs that's art. Checkmate faggot
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What even is "art" to begin with, especially now? Do we really want to put games such as Serious Sam II, Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Team Fortress 2, Need for Speed Underground 2, and many more classics, on the same level as a banana stuck into a wall with duct tape, some "performance" featuring characters pissing on each other, or some worthless "film d'auteur"? I say, video games are not art, because I don't want them compared with our current society's vision of "art". I'd say art can go fuck itself with a paintbrush, but I remembered watching some dude painting with one up his ass on the Internet, so that isn't necessary.
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>>1059666 I kind of wish that, instead of having his jaw pseudo-reconstructed, that he had the balls to just remove his tongue and the skin back to his esophegus - then left both sides of his jaw separated so that they operated independently. like a pair of mandibles. You know, like the Elites from Halo.
>>1059685 >I say, video games are not art, because I don't want them compared with our current society's vision of "art". Though I think there is something to be said for "art games" that are attempting to do something, like Paper's Please and This War of Mine. Those kinds of games are infinitely more interesting than Call of Duty #87 and live service slop.
I think a game has to be non-linear, have a story, and not be a VN that just focuses on text and photos. Otherwise if the intended experience is the same for everyone, it's a movie. If it has no story, it's complicated sudoku or spreadsheet or tapping buttons. If it's a VN, it's a glorified art book and actual book that you can get in a choose-your-own-adventure form. The purpose of a game is to be played, but for videogames it has to go beyond a newspaper puzzle game.
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>>1059694 >"art games" Those are the worst though, anything trying to be "art" is fucking retarded. Your will to create and express yourself should be your driving force, not what some pretensions faggots recognize as "art" from their own boxed view. Some guy creating cobble stone statues with anatomy today would be viewed as a "pervert" nowadays, not as an artist.
>>1059705 *with near perfect human anatomy
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>>1059497 >It's been 12 years since Roger Ebert said video games can never be art. And we've been paying for it ever since. I hate this debate, it's the type that should be held between intellectuals but everybody who argues this question has severe Dunning-Kruger syndrome. I'm annoyed that I don't have the intelligence or philosophical know-how to fully express my opinions (started editing this chart to put forth my definitions but was completely stumped on what the y axis should represent). I recognize that it's mostly going to boil down to personal subjective tastes as to what is and isn't art, and that the widespread definition of art is incongruous with vidya (or at least vidya gets the most bullying due to being the youngest entertainment medium), but beyond that I don't see myself as qualified to act as authority on the subject even with two decades experience in the medium. I just don't know man. >>1059778 You shut your mouth. >>1059854 >Roger Ebert Did Nothing Wrong *One thing wrong. If he didn't say that we wouldn't have had devs bending over backwards to get his approval.
Video games are a craft however a master work of craftsmanship can be a work of art.
>>1059854 >>1059859 What actually happened was that faggots like Jack Thompson and Dave Grossman were trying to get games banned and everyone started pulling the "games are art" thing as a special case checkmate against that. Because in the US art is speech, and speech has special and broad protections because of the 1st Amendment. So if games are art then they can't be banned by the government. And it worked too. Unfortunately it created an unforeseen gap that allowed leftist ideologues in and in the 20 years since Thompson the left/right gap has only grown and the interplay between them has only gotten nastier. Plus once the lefties got into influential positions in gaming they decided to try and pull up the ladder and started going "fuck free speech, delete free speech".
>>1059859 I'd say the Y axis is the "Synthesis of meaning". >Purist is a first-degree or direct synthesis, >the neutral/second-degree is an indirect synthesis derived from nature or "building upon" nature, >the rebel/third-degree synthesis derived from existing syntheses to build its meaning (or lack thereof)
>>1059867 >the rebel/third-degree synthesis derived *derives
>>1059866 Jack Thompson can burn in hell too tbh. >>1059867 I dunno, I was thinking more "production" or "skill needed to craft", "meaning" is kind of already covered by the x axis. Didn't have a good way to describe it, especially with the contents of the graph as they are now (am open to changing if given good justification)
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>>1059859 You almost have interactivity as the y axis, as the rebel category requires conversation and half of what makes a meme good is the timing on when it's relevant to post it or even make it/find it. My other post >>1059696 has a few other characteristics to consider.
>>1059859 There is no good metric to use to make the Y axis congruent with the X axis for the examples given, you would have to change them. Not to mention it would end up being too overly reductive/simplified with only 2 axes and 3 options, but eh, whatever. Also there are plenty of video games with clear intended messages behind them.
>>1059497 >Was Ebert wrong? Yes, as all gay faggots were, are and will forever be. >Where, below, did Ebert go wrong? Everywere, just by existing. >What is art? Who gives a fuck? >Can video games be art? Can video games be fun? >What video games are art? Everything, especially those yaoi vns you jerk off to every night. >>1059498 >is that people like Roger say things like this with the primary purpose of belittling and psychologically abusing people like us Take note, this is the most importan thing to get out of this thread. >>1059513 >Like Amerimutts, or Canada becoming India. Or the UK becoming the new Islamaband and so on. Wasn't there a research that came out recently that confirmed that indians-pakis do indeed have smaller brains than the average caucasian and chinaman? >>1059600 >Miyamoto The fuck did Shiggy say? I remember SWERY saying something to the tune of all the others though but I can't remember if it was during his "White Owls" era or while he was still chummy with Access Games. >>1059600 >the striking running theme seems to be that intellectuals make universal declarations because they consider themselve to be the "experts" on what defines "good taste". Ironically showing in the process just how bigotted and biased they actuallly are. Always has been the case. Even the ancient people clowned on them to put them on a leash and make them realise what fuck-ups they were. Aristophanes did it as well? >And from what I've seen, societies seem to be increasingly reaching the point where those experts are losing control. Is that true? I'm seeing general apathy or worse, complete lack of knowledge about these fuckers and how they worm up to gov officials and lick their ears with sweet nothings, especially in the "think tanks". >>1059638 >If you actually know gamedevs you know how blown the fuck out they'd feel over this quote. Depends on the dev. Some of them actually died wondering if people just liked their games and nothing else.
>>1059497 Yes vidyagaems can be art. The interactive nature of them allows for a whole new vector of art. However, caring whether or not people think you’re art is pathetic. It is much like caring if people think you’re cool.
video games are art because video games are made of art, like drawings, animation, music, and story
>>1059497 >>Santiago concedes that chess, football, baseball and even mah jong cannot be art, however elegant their rules. I agree. But of course that depends on the definition of art. She says the most articulate definition of art she’s found is the one in Wikipedia: “Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.” This is an intriguing definition, although as a chess player I might argue that my game fits the definition. Ebert is correct that Chess and all other games fit the definition, because rules are elements arranged to appeal to senses and emotions. He and Santiago are both wrong that Chess and the other listed games aren't art. >One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them. Ebert is correct that if a game doesn't have objectives, it's not a game. He's also correct that a lot of the examples people list as "games as art" aren't even games. Other "games" people don't often list as games as art, but are very popular, also aren't games. The Sims, at least the versions that don't have tacked-on goals, isn't a game. And that's fine. It's also still art, despite essentially being a digital dollhouse. Dollhouses are also art. Toys are art in general. They've been designed to appeal to the senses and emotions. >Yet what ideas are contained in Stravinsky, Picasso, “Night of the Hunter,” “Persona,” “Waiting for Godot,” “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock?” Oh, you can perform an exegesis or a paraphrase, but then you are creating your own art object from the materials at hand. The fact that the ideas are difficult to express as well in media other than the ones in which they've been presented is precisely why the listed works are such good works of art. Ebert's second point is just saying that analysis or adaptation is also art, which is correct, but he missed the point he accidentally made. >The documentary made an enormous appeal to my senses and emotions, although I am not proposing it as art. Ebert doesn't count documentaries as art? There is no way that's the case. I haven't read every review he's ever done, but I'm sure he must have reviewed many documentaries as works of art. There is a huge deal of artistry in creating a documentary. Just editing video is artistry, and of course there is much more artistry involved in creating a documentary. >Ebert thinks Braid is pseudointellectual trash He's correct on this point as well. But it's still art. >The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.” This is irrelevant, because he's again switching the argument. Is he trying to argue that video games aren't art, or that video games aren't good art? >Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care. A fair point. But sometimes a debate can be had for purely intellectual purposes. It shouldn't be about ego, because who cares what this failed filmmaker thinks? But definitionally, games are art. That goes beyond video games. Jordan might not have argued that basketball is art, but it is. The game itself is a work of art. >do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Another example of his motte-and-bailey fallacy. "Greatness" is not part of the argument he claims to be having. >I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case. This man is a film critic. How does he not realize that all of these things are involved in filmmaking as well? Throughout this article, Ebert consistently uses a motte-and-bailey fallacy, perhaps accidentally. He says he's discussing the definition of art, but he often instead discusses quality of art. These are two wholly different arguments. Some art is better than other, sure, but bad art is still art. >>1059501 It was pretty well known that Ebert never smoked. >>1059503 >Westerners continue to sniff their own asses by spouting a diarrhea of words to sound themselves smart and cultured like in the OP (no hard feelings OP). But the Japanese invented the JRPG and the VN genre, which exist largely just so you can read an illustrated novel with tacked on gameplay. The Japanese invented Hideo Kojima. Westerners definitely do this, and always have, what with things like text/point-and-click adventures going back a very long ways, but it never became as dominant a trend in western games until much more recently. Even Western RPGs are less about reading walls of text than JRPGs. Text/point-and-click adventures were always niche genres in the west, but JRPGs were huge in Japan as soon as they were invented, while westerners were playing basically nothing but platformers and shooters. Eventually those got filled with bullshit excuses for stories, but that was decades later. >>1059593 >The art arises from user-interaction, All art is interactive, as it all involves user participation in the form of interpretation, at the very least. Postmodern art is also very much interested in interactivity. Granted, I think most postmodern art is fucking shit, but it's still art. >You can't just passively observe the game and get anything out of it. Sure you can. It becomes a piece of performance art, like a play, or a basketball game. Still art. >They just want a self-contained object that they can interpret from an outside and "objective" perspective The fart sniffers you complain about will often claim that objectivity doesn't exist. Of course they'll contradict this when saying their opinions are better than yours, but when interpreting art, they'll say it's subjective (while acting like it's objective), and also act like you don't enjoy it as much because you don't have the skill to interpret it the way they do. They indeed act like it's very interactive and skill based, even if they wouldn't use the term "skill based." >>1059602
[Expand Post]But Ebert put forth several definitions. >>1059607 >I'll always agree that games are to be fun first One could say the same for all art. On the other hand, sometimes a game is so fucking hard that I'm not having fun, but I am engaged. When you are raging because you've spent 45 minutes trying to beat a single level in Ninja Gaiden or whatever, as you having "fun?" Depends on your definition of fun. But it's engaging. It's appealing to the emotions and senses. >The issue arises when art niggers focus entirely on the art aspect and believe their games have to be "statements" or bring a message, a meaning, and not products. That's because the far left doesn't believe art even really exists. Marxists think everything is about power, so there is no difference between art and propaganda. They therefore take this as an excuse to make all their art the most blatant propaganda possible. >>1059632 >"Creative expression is art if made for its own beauty and entertainment if it’s made for money." By this definition, practically every work of art you've ever heard of is not really art. All those classical masters weren't working for free. By this definition, only obscure works of outsider art are truly art. As much as I am fascinated by the works of Henry Darger or Christian Weston Chandler, I would not say that only people like them can be true artists. They are artists, but not the only artists. >>1059637 >linear writing Why must it be linear? >A peak art game should be focusing on things that only games can do. This is a very good point. The people that bitch about games being art never actually appreciate the medium they're dealing with, and instead just keep trying to mash this medium into being a pale imitation of other media. >>1059644 I actually like the definition Santiago/Ebert put forward, that art is elements arranged to appeal to the senses. But I'd go further, and say art is just elements arranged for any purpose. Anything done deliberately is art. Unfettered nature isn't art. Complete accidents aren't art. Pretty much everything else is. If you plant a garden or otherwise manipulate nature, it's art. If you deliberately caused someone to have an accident, then the accident becomes art. And things can be art and also other things. Architecture is art, even though it's also largely about function. >>1059696 >I think a game has to be non-linear, have a story, and not be a VN that just focuses on text and photos. Otherwise if the intended experience is the same for everyone, it's a movie. >implying all art needs to have a story >implying Donkey Kong is a movie. >>1059859 Everything on this chart is art except for life. But if I was religious, then I'd consider life to be art created by God. >>1059862 All crafts are art. A carpenter is an artist. >>1059866 Started well before Thompson. The thread has already mentioned the congressional hearings of the '90s, leading to the ESRB. So if you want to blame a specific individual, blame 2000 Democrat VP candidate Joe Lieberman, who led the hearings about video game violence. >>1060797 That's like saying a Blockbuster is art because it has movies in it. No, but the interior of a building is art because it's been designed. It would still be art if the movies were taken out. If you take the story out of a game, it would still be art. If you removed the music, it would still be art. There are lots of video games with no story or music. They're still art. There are video games with no animation, but only still images. They're still art. This goes back to a further question of not just what is art, but what is a video game. Is Simon a video game? I'd say yes. And I'd also say it's art because of both the rules and the design of the shell. Programming and engineering are also forms of art that are involved here, too. Is Bop It a video game? It no longer has lights and therefore can't fit any definition of video, but it does have visual design, among all the other forms of design that Simon and all common video games have. It's art. I'd also say it fits a colloquial definition of "video game" even though it doesn't fit a technical definition, since it doesn't have "video."
>>1061159 >>implying all art needs to have a story >>implying Donkey Kong is a movie. Donkey kong does have a primitive story perfectly suited for its time and probably in manuals or in the arcade, the examples listed don't.
>>1061172 Yeah, the point is Donkey Kong has a story and isn't a movie. And Pong doesn't have a story (at least the original version, idk about the PS1 version or whatever) but it is more than a spreadsheet or tapping buttons.
>>1061173 Oh I forgot my post since its been a while. I admit it was an exaggeration for the sake of brevity to call linear games a movie, but the rest was trying to seperate the art of playing a game from the game itself being art. A narrative is a seperate qualifier to me than the qualifier of player agency affecting the game (beyond "the ability to play the game" or "I choose to die and game over asap to have a different assumed ending"). Donkey Kong does have a passable story but the only way for players to show any difference between playthroughs is how good you are at not dying or potentially just hopping aimlessly. Compared to megaman's stage select giving you a few choices that affect your gameplay, donkey kong would be a weak example of the advantages the videogame medium has as art, since every possible playthrough being similar means most feelings are provoked from playing the game well and nostalgia rather than trying a new strategy the third time around (beyond "don't die as much" or speedrun-tier ideas like hammerless runs, the latter admittedly not crossing my mind til now). Hard to put it to words really, and it's probably only me who cares to distinguish it, but something about it prevents everything becoming art just because someone interacted with it. Staring at something makes it art, stepping outside and getting cold is art, etc. Donkey Kong has more depth than that absurdity, but that's my point, there is a line somewhere and plenty of games could pass over it if you stretch it a little, but other games pass cleanly.
Video Games aren't art, they're a craft.
>>1061194 Are bows also a craft? I would consider making or using one to be.
>>1061194 No it isn't. Video games aren't made by hand.
>>1061221 No it isn't. Video games aren't made by benis
>>1061187 >the rest was trying to seperate the art of playing a game from the game itself being art. Sure, you can separate these two concepts. I'd argue the game itself is definitely art. Playing the game? Maybe. Playing the game for spectators? Yes. Does art remain art if there is nobody to view it? If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? >something about it prevents everything becoming art just because someone interacted with it. Staring at something makes it art, stepping outside and getting cold is art, etc. You're conflating the art with the interaction. You interact with art, yes. A blank wall is art, and you can interact with it by interpreting it. Someone made it. It was designed, even if simply. However, the act of interacting, while it may be art, would be a different work of art than the wall itself. Could stepping outside be art? Yes. Performance art is a thing. But the outside and the cold aren't art. Unless that outside environment has been deliberately cultivated and made cold. Actually, our outside environments are highly cultivated, and people do choose to put the cultivated elements in a cold environment... so yeah. Sure. Cities are art. Towns are art. Homes are art. Anything that's been impacted by consciousness is art. Maybe it doesn't need to be human consciousness. Maybe a bird's nest is art. Maybe a rabbit's burrow is art. That doesn't mean it's good art, though. >>1061221 Yes they are. Someone uses their hands to type the code. Hands are used to create many of the elements that go into games, as well, such as drawing the visuals and playing the instruments that make the music. Is singing art? It's not done with the hands.
>>1061254 >That doesn't mean it's good art, though. Essentially what I meant, a single berserk manga screenshot on 2 hours of film you have to sit through and experience isn't good art for the medium either, like a no-commentary walkthrough could replace for some games like donkey kong. By making it a game, the player feels accomplishment, the developer designed the experience, but rote repeatability is a demerit on the game being art in a medium of interactivity.
>>1061277 >like a no-commentary walkthrough could replace for some games like donkey kong. Bad example. A no-commentary walkthrough can replace games that are all about story and not gameplay. Donkey Kong has a story, but the gameplay is very much the focus. You do not at all get the same experience by just watching it. But The Last of Us? Yeah, you can probably just watch that. >but rote repeatability is a demerit on the game being art in a medium of interactivity. I wouldn't say solvability is a demerit on something being art. This implies randomized games are more artistic than non-randomized games, and if anything, I'd argue the opposite, since they're less designed, and I'd argue the design is what makes it art. (But even randomized games are still designed and are still art.) And even once a game is "solved," not only is there still usually great challenge in playing it in the solved fashion, but even if there wasn't, there would still be the interactivity of interpretation, as other media have. Only now you are not just interpreting the pictures and sound, but also the more direct forms of interactivity, even if you've "solved" it. You could solve the movements but not the interpretations.
>>1061328 You haven't fully experienced a game until you've destroyed it. It's meant to be interacted with, unlike a painting or movie :^)
>>1061586 Paintings and movies are also meant to be interacted with, just not quite as much. Destroying it is also interacting with it and experiencing it. It's frowned upon since you're ruining it for other people, but it's still a way of experiencing the art.
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>>1059497 I'm going to ignore your post because Ebert was a bit of a fag and his site hosts the most retarded review of Island of Dogs ever made (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/isle-of-dogs-2018 if you're curious), and will instead say that a lot of the people shitting themselves about how "games are a real art" always hype up games for their cinematic storytelling instead of the part of games that actually makes the game a fucking game. Hotline Miami, Lobotomy Corporation, and Helldivers have way stronger claims to being models of "games as art" than Chrono Trigger, Braid, and Ori.
>>1062797 >Hotline Miami, Lobotomy Corporation, and Helldivers have way stronger claims to being models of "games as art" than Chrono Trigger Don't you get tired of saying stupid shit?
>>1062797 People only remember Braid anymore for how butthurt the creator got hearing Soulja Boy shitting on his game.
>>1061159 >All crafts are art. A carpenter is an artist. <Using the original definition of art Muh man. >>1061222 >Horny VNs full of seggs aren't made by some japanese madman's wild benisslaps on a keyboard during a drunk friday night Reality is very cruel.
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>can video games be art? Yes. Roger ebert was a hack. Complete loser btw.
Vidya is art both as an artisan craft of cultural excellence and the typical pretentious hack fauxlisophical definition. Just shove the MGS2 speech where two Japanese writers predicted the modern state of internet discourse through educated guesses in 2002 into normalfags' faces and it will blow their minds, it's something no film in the same time period anticipated. This is the same game where you played as a naked feminine guy doing cartwheels and you're supposed to laugh, and the entire franchise is just James Bond with cyberpunk trappings. Given enough time it will mutate into the twenty-first century's 1984. It's already being studied in university courses, as much a scam as higher education is these days.
>>1063089 Deus ex did something similar
Video games have an interactive component that separates them from most other art. OP posted pics that are just absolutely bog standard games that look pretty. I guess have your own art style means "video games are art". Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy is an example of at least using the interaction to try to express something. To try to make the player actually think and feel about what's going on rather than sit back and enjoy the vistas. I don't think it succeeds in that regard wholeheartedly but at least it has a go. Can't anyone think of any examples of games that actually use the fact that they're games to do something expressive rather than just have a good story or visuals? Where's all the artistic interaction?
>>1059607 >diminutive of the herculean effort that all fronts take to produce a single high quality game I guess call of duty 28 is a momentous display of human expression and creativity -.- idiot
>>1063200 Dwarf Fortress
"Are games art?" is the kind of question that keeps pseudointellectuals up at night. Art is money laundering, so the question can be answered "yes" for some AAA games and "no" for everything else.
>>1063228 That often comes to my mind for this situation but it is a bit of well known answer. Dwarf Fortress has enough complexity to truly create interesting stories. Do you know of something not as well known?
You fags didn't read the whole thing - >Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care. >Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Ebert straight up says "why do you desperately want it to be called art?" to the critics themselves. And he gives the answer "because you want validation from others". Ebert wasn't the faggot, Kelee Santiago was. By showing crud like Braid (pretentious game made by a one and done guy), flower (cool wallpaper viewer), and other movie games. All these have one thing in common - they are PASSIVE MEDIA. Meant for one-way consumption and doesn't require any work, just like traditional static arts. That these art critics adore. Just like an athlete performing a good routine or a player playing a good game, or a skateboarding kid, parkour, chess, baseball, woodworking etc. don't call themselves as "art", yet its enjoyed, replicated and praised as its own thing. These artfags will never know the joys of jumping a ledge and throwing a ball perfectly. Let video games be in the league of ACTIVE MEDIA and talk about its strength. Which video game has the best active joy?
>>1063617 Ebert made a lot of great points people completely ignore because it's easier to pretend he said something he didn't. He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks, that's much harder to argue against that "hurr boomer don't like da bideo james". >Braid I'll always maintain Braid is a legitimately fun puzzle platformer with a creator way up his own ass and an industry that tried way to hard to pretend it was "important". The game itself isn't even pretentious besides for the ending, maybe. I remember playing it without knowledge of the paratext and thinking it was just a fun little indie. But something I haven't seen heard anybody talk about ITT is how this "Are games art?" discussion largely died off in the wider gaming sphere over a decade ago. It was really active in that 2008-2013 psued era where many journos and devs desperately wanted to be taken seriously, you'd see random sophomoric indie flash games held up as "srs art 4 srs gamerz" because you walked around with sad music instead of shooting a gun. Now that vidya is by far the biggest medium in the world they don't seem to care as much. Actors play games, musicians play games, authors play games; they've become an accepted part of culture without the question ever really being answered. I think that answer will, eventually, become "yes". If there was any good point Santiago made, it was that video games were simply too young to have done anything.
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>>1063633 >He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks Uh, YEAH, because your video game needs to be capable of making money so that you can continue making video games. Film companies do the exact same thing because we all live in this little things called REALITY. And in reality, you have to pay for your shit. We don't live in a world where you can shit out whatever creation you want and automatically get paid for it. Over 200+ countries have tried that system over the past century and every single one of them has failed.
>>1063633 The reason why "are games art?" mostly died off is twofold. First is the practical reason for having games be "art", legal protection from government censorship, has been secured in the US. The second is the insecure pretentious fuckwits are now calling the shots. They already think the shit they make is art, so the 'debate' is needless in their eyes.
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>>1063637 <doesn't even know the context of the conversation <starts posting like a sperg The other anon was right, you people don't read. Ebert was saying that in relation to a talk that was specifically about games as art.
>>1063641 It sounds like a retarded robot given the context has nothing to do with the conversation
>>1063641 >>1063649 Should developers just make whatever game they want, regardless of the financial consequences, because "They're an artist and it would be 'bad' to hinder their ability to create their work"?
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>>1063641 >>1063649 It's a terminal lolbert, please ignore it
>>1063651 I'm pretty sure it's a retarded robot.
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>>1063651 >>1063656 Is that the new tactic these days? If anyone says something your don't like or brings up a point you don't want to address, gaslight the conversation by exclusive refering to the person as your personal boogieman such as a "bot" or a "lolbert" in this particular case. That really stimulates a conversation, doesn't it?
>>1063617 >skateboarding kid You know it's interesting that you bring up skateboarding but Ebert didn't. Ebert did bring up dancing, and is skateboarding, at least when it's for tricks and not a race, not essentially dancing? Just like figure skating is ice dancing. Even by Ebert's definition, skateboarding should definitely be considered an art. The "sport" is in convincing judges that your dance is better than other dances. Parkour and woodworking are the same. There is objectivity in that you don't want to slam your face into the concrete while doing parkour, and you want your table to be stable, but really what makes good parkour or woodworking is beauty. That's what people are actually judging, beyond your ability to simply not fuck up. If a dance is a work of art, then these things are certainly art. I'd also argue games with more concrete goals, like chess and baseball, are art, but for a different reason than things that are literally judged for their beauty, like skateboarding. But your point (and one of Ebert's points) that you shouldn't care if you are called "art" has merit. However, sometimes it's appropriate to simply argue over the actual use of language, for its own sake. For the sake of having consistent definition, these things are certainly art, not that it matters to how good or important they are. >Active media Still art. But yes I agree with you that the video games that are the best examples of their artistic medium are the ones that utilize their actual interactivity effectively. And when you say "which video game has the best active joy?" you're actually coming back to the actual most important question in video games. "Which games are the most fun?" Because at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to, and that's what it's always come down to. And little kids intuitively know it. And these pretentious retards like the one Ebert was critiquing are so obsessed with looking grown up that they miss the obvious truth. They try to come up with new words and a bunch of rambling gobbledygook to justify what every little kid knows. The best video games are the ones that are the most fun. >>1063633 >He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks, that's much harder to argue against that "hurr boomer don't like da bideo james". Yeah but he's a film critic. It's not like his industry isn't the same. And it needs to be. That's life. These things cost money to make and you gotta get the money from somewhere. The problem is when they de-prioritize the actual artistic value so much that the product isn't even worth buying. At a certain point, art is profitable. You need to prioritize it to at least a certain degree or else people won't buy it. A movie/video game/whatever needs to actually be at least sort of good, or all your marketing won't actually save it, or won't be as profitable as if it was good. >Now that vidya is by far the biggest medium in the world Wasn't it by far the biggest medium in the world since like the late '90s or early 2000s? I could have sworn I remembered hearing how it vastly outpaced hollywood back then. >>1063641 The point you're mad at was completely legitimate, and your reply didn't discount from its legitimacy at all. Things cost money, and just saying that the people making them care about money doesn't mean they're not art. To say so would discount almost every work of art you or Ebert has ever heard of, and he loves plenty of Hollywood garbage made for money. Because though it's made for money, some of it is still pretty good, at least in his opinion. >>1063649 >>1063651 >>1063656 >guy criticizes art for being made for money >Anon points out that things cost money and there isn't any way around it >You get mad at say it has nothing to do with the conversation. You guys are so fucking retarded it almost looks like you're doing it on purpose, but it's been a long time since Poe's Law came into effect around here.
>>1063633 That's nothing new. I believed the thread thinking ebert was doing something boomer for days. It was only today that I read rest of the OP and realized Santiago was the mega faggot. I don't discord them. I think that 2013 journo discussion about vidya is art guys, largely died after release of Bioshock Infinite. They rallied hard after that game and after its success they had their win and milded out >>1063673 True. Just like sports, vidya is its own thing. Sportspersons don't care about being called art, why should we?
>>1063673 And if I may get pretentious autistic, I'd like to say Learn 2 Fly, this little flash game, is one of the best example of video game doing something other "art" don't do - give a sense of progressive achievement. Towards an impossible goal of making a penguin fly, via making the progress fun. Its engaging players by showing the art of impossible progress. That's an fun experience worthy of being labled as "art". If it was a black and white movie with Tilda Swinton playing the penguin and breaking the iceberg was a metaphor for feminism or some shit, it would be dick sucked constantly for 3years minimum
>>1063617 But that's not really an argument. >"why do you desperately want it to be called art?" to the critics themselves. And he gives the answer "because you want validation from others". Why does a guy want his fecal smears on canvas to be called art? Is it for any reason other than cash or validation? Isn't the notion of validating something an intrinsic aspect of calling something art? What reason is there to care if anything is considered art otherwise? >active media Is jazz art?
Art is an expression of creativity. Vidya gaems are an expression of creativity. Therefore, vidya gaems are art. /thread. Now let me ask you a question: Why do you care?
Artists all deserve the rope, whether they rope themselves or get someone else to do it. Artists have degenerative brain disorders that make it physically impossible for them to to form a coherent thought that isn't up its own ass upon conception. This mental dysfunction such stress on the artist's mind that the only way to cope with the surrounding world is to degenerate everything around them to fall into these deranged philosophies. They often see things that are "childish" or not expressly in service to "art" and become incensed; the first thought an artist will have upon seeing someone enjoying those "non-art" aspects of something is to first make it clear that "this thing can NEVER be taken seriously as long as people appreciate these things" as though the statue of David or Mozart's 5th symphony are any less beautiful because they are enjoyed on a level beyond awe for the joy of creation; most people do not create in a way that is perceptible, and thus is the self-induced delusion of the artist. An artist observes the world as black and white, the black being those who consume, and white, those who create. In reality, a lot of people do create, or have some creative thoughts, but don't tap into them in day to day lives. It is the ignorant artist who goes out of his way to inform the world that they are, instead, solely responsible for holding creativity and culture on their back, as though they themselves have become as god. Artists are tyrants in this way, enforcing strict standards, oppressing those who call their creations for what they are, and seek to refuse those who do not create in the express way they do from outlining any standard of critique against them. The artist has never gummed their hands with dirt or grime, and thus do not understand the workers of the world that they create on the backs of, and so it lends to their absurd world view that the only true path is creation, and all others are falsehoods. They believe they are above any system, they believe there is no price or coin that could be exchanged for their intellect, and there is no greater struggle than that of an artist. They simultaneously believe in a fantasy that all others can live their dreams, but for the artist their dream is shunned and oppressed by society, and there is no profit to be made; if they truly cared about art for the love of it then they would die before their works alone in the world. In the eyes of an artist, everyone else is simply imagining themselves as highly as they possibly can, and back to the artist's pompous attitude, the artists undoubtedly believes that the clerk whom the artist shuffles supplies beneath their nose is simply not capable of thoughts big enough to imagine a higher goal. This absurd world the artist spins for themselves becomes a dystopia for themselves, since everyone else is able to freely live their dreams, but the artist, who dreams of creation for creation's sake, is met with the harsh reality that simple creation is no a unique talent, or worse yet, they believe their creation is underappreciated by the weak and meek masses who simply do not have the brains to understand creation. The deny their own reality, supplanting a falsehood that consumes them until they die. For this reason, I think the artist deserves it. The artist has worked tirelessly to die, and that should be readily provided to them. If they wish to live in a world ruled by only their thoughts, they may be ruled by those thoughts in a long and endless sleep run from a red river down their arms. They wish to be a tyrant; little king, you may stamp your feet as a ghost all you like, and think yourself the king of cosmos. God, and all, they wish to be, and so they may become a god of a far away place hereafter. I say all this, and it is with great hatred and evil in my very soul, that I think artistry for its own sake is nonsense in the same way that creating a cup when you have nothing to drink is foolhardy. I reject the notion that anything should be labeled as art, because it does nothing to define the work, and even less than genre titles. It's as compelling to call two things art as it is to simply inform someone that Billy Ray Cyrus and Robert Plant are both singers; are we to assume that all these things are created equally? Is something that is made badly suddenly not considered art? Is something that is created well to be considered art, or is it only middle-tiered works that do not inspire at all? Who decides what is good or bad? Is objective reasoning the only observation that may be made for art's quality, or are there personal, subjective aspects that make the quality differ from person to person? Art itself is as outdated a term, and describes such a vague concept that if you were to ask someone off the street what art is, their answer would certainly be something similar to, "something that makes you feel a certain way," and will become confused if you ask them if a particularly brutal shit you took is considered art. Fuck art, fuck artists, and this discussion is not video games.
>why even ask this question I can think of better questions, which avoid the word "art." >are games cringe? >do games change the way you think about life? >would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? These get at the actual issue, which is about ego and perceived immaturity, both of the medium and the people who enjoy it. It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game like Soul Calibur III would be absurd. Should expectations be that low? Should games get a free pass to have shitty writing because "it's about the gameplay?" Of course, the medium since "grew up" into the shitshow it is now, so the writing is not only shitty, but also pretentious. The medium has all the potential of its constituent parts, but if that potential is only realized in rare instances that never reach the mainstream, what should people think of a stack of little plastic cases in a man's living room?
>>1072641 >are games cringe? Not really, but people can make them cringe. >do games change the way you think about life? Sometimes. >would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? No, because games aren't intended for that purpose. They can grant insights, teach lessons and help at rough times in life through enjoyment, entertainment and fun, but they are not a replacement for living life yourself and having good people in your life. Unless you wanted to put him on the path of becoming a game developer or something, then that would make sense. No piece of media can make a person "grow up" on their own, at best they can maybe indirectly push him towards it at a time when he would be receptive towards such messages, but the person still has to make the conscious choice to do so. As an interesting side note: I will say though that there was a point in time that I didn't have any games on an Exbawks 360 besides NBA 2K9 and some other assorted trash, and that somehow ended up getting me interested in basketball and actually playing it outside, which was a healthy thing since I had zero interest in sports before that point. >It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game like Soul Calibur III would be absurd. Should expectations be that low? Should games get a free pass to have shitty writing because "it's about the gameplay?" Fighting games have never really had good writing, but people don't play fighting games for the writing. Someone could theoretically change that by making some well-written fighting game, but there are difficulties in doing something like that because the formats for most fighting games are not conducive to telling a good story. (e.g. arcade-style progression for story modes).
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>>1072641 >It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game would be absurd. Legacy of Kain? FF6? Silent Hill 2? The potential's been there for decades. >if that potential is only realized in rare instances that never reach the mainstream, what should people think of a stack of little plastic cases in a man's living room? How many films out there reach the peak of film as an artform's potential? 90% of the movies in your collection probably have trash elements about them as well. Sturgeon's law doesn't just apply to games, it applies to everything, and that's not a good reason to write off the medium as a whole. >>1072647 >>would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? >No, because games aren't intended for that purpose You're not a real man until you've played Senran Kagura imo.


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