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Video games as art Anonymous 01/10/2025 (Fri) 09:17:44 Id: 75b412 No. 1059497
It's been 12 years since Roger Ebert said video games can never be art. Was Ebert wrong? Where, below, did Ebert go wrong? What is art? Can video games be art? What video games are art? >Having once made the statement above, I have declined all opportunities to enlarge upon it or defend it. That seemed to be a fool’s errand, especially given the volume of messages I receive urging me to play this game or that and recant the error of my ways. Nevertheless, I remain convinced that in principle, video games cannot be art. Perhaps it is foolish of me to say “never,” because never, as Rick Wakeman informs us, is a long, long time. Let me just say that no video gamer now living will survive long enough to experience the medium as an art form. >What stirs me to return to the subject? I was urged by a reader, Mark Johns, to consider a video of a TED talk given at USC by Kellee Santiago, a designer and producer of video games. I did so. I warmed to Santiago immediately. She is bright, confident, persuasive. But she is mistaken. >I propose to take an unfair advantage. She spoke extemporaneously. I have the luxury of responding after consideration. If you want to follow along, I urge you to watch her talk, which is embedded below. It’s only 15 minutes long, and she makes the time pass quickly. >She begins by saying video games “already ARE art.” Yet she concedes that I was correct when I wrote, “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.” To which I could have added painters, composers, and so on, but my point is clear. >Then she shows a slide of a prehistoric cave painting, calling it “kind of chicken scratches on walls,” and contrasts it with Michelangelo’s ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. Her point is that while video games may be closer to the chicken scratch end of the spectrum, I am foolish to assume they will not evolve. >She then says speech began as a form of warning, and writing as a form of bookkeeping, but they evolved into storytelling and song. Actually, speech probably evolved into a form of storytelling and song long before writing was developed. And cave paintings were a form of storytelling, perhaps of religion, and certainly of the creation of beauty from those chicken-scratches Werner Herzog is even now filming in 3-D. >Herzog believes, in fact, that the paintings on the wall of the Cave of Chauvet-Pont-d’Arc in Southern France should only be looked at in the context of the shadows cast on those dark walls by the fires built behind the artists, which suggests the cave paintings, their materials of charcoal and ochre and all that went into them were the fruition of a long gestation, not the beginning of something–and that the artists were enormously gifted. They were great artists at that time, geniuses with nothing to build on, and were not in the process of becoming Michelangelo or anyone else. Any gifted artist will tell you how much he admires the “line” of those prehistoric drawers in the dark, and with what economy and wit they evoked the animals they lived among. >Santiago concedes that chess, football, baseball and even mah jong cannot be art, however elegant their rules. I agree. But of course that depends on the definition of art. She says the most articulate definition of art she’s found is the one in Wikipedia: “Art is the process of deliberately arranging elements in a way that appeals to the senses or emotions.” This is an intriguing definition, although as a chess player I might argue that my game fits the definition. >Plato, via Aristotle, believed art should be defined as the imitation of nature. Seneca and Cicero essentially agreed. Wikipedia believes “Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more concerned with the expression of ideas…Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge, and interaction.” >But we could play all day with definitions, and find exceptions to every one. For example, I tend to think of art as usually the creation of one artist. Yet a cathedral is the work of many, and is it not art? One could think of it as countless individual works of art unified by a common purpose. Is not a tribal dance an artwork, yet the collaboration of a community? Yes, but it reflects the work of individual choreographers. Everybody didn’t start dancing all at once. >One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them. >She quotes Robert McKee’s definition of good writing as “being motivated by a desire to touch the audience.” This is not a useful definition, because a great deal of bad writing is also motivated by the same desire. I might argue that the novels of Cormac McCarthy are so motivated, and Nicholas Sparks would argue that his novels are so motivated. But when I say McCarthy is “better” than Sparks and that his novels are artworks, that is a subjective judgment, made on the basis of my taste (which I would argue is better than the taste of anyone who prefers Sparks). >Santiago now phrases this in her terms: “Art is a way of communicating ideas to an audience in a way that the audience finds engaging.” Yet what ideas are contained in Stravinsky, Picasso, “Night of the Hunter,” “Persona,” “Waiting for Godot,” “The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock?” Oh, you can perform an exegesis or a paraphrase, but then you are creating your own art object from the materials at hand. >Kellee Santiago has arrived at this point lacking a convincing definition of art. But is Plato’s any better? Does art grow better the more it imitates nature? My notion is that it grows better the more it improves or alters nature through an passage through what we might call the artist’s soul, or vision. Countless artists have drawn countless nudes. They are all working from nature. Some of there paintings are masterpieces, most are very bad indeed. How do we tell the difference? We know. It is a matter, yes, of taste. >Santiago now supplies samples of a video game named “Waco Resurrection” (above), in which the player, as David Koresh, defends his Branch Davidian compound against FBI agents. The graphics show the protagonist exchanging gunfire with agents according to the rules of the game. Although the player must don a Koresh mask and inspire his followers to play, the game looks from her samples like one more brainless shooting-gallery. >“Waco Resurrection” may indeed be a great game, but as potential art it still hasn’t reached the level of chicken scratches, she defends the game not as a record of what happened at Waco, but “as how we feel happened in our culture and society.” Having seen the 1997 documentary “Waco: The Rules of Engagement,” I would in contrast award the game a Fail in this category. The documentary made an enormous appeal to my senses and emotions, although I am not proposing it as art. >Her next example is a game named “Braid” (above). This is a game “that explores our own relationship with our past…you encounter enemies and collect puzzle pieces, but there’s one key difference…you can’t die.” You can go back in time and correct your mistakes. In chess, this is known as taking back a move, and negates the whole discipline of the game. Nor am I persuaded that I can learn about my own past by taking back my mistakes in a video game. She also admires a story told between the games levels, which exhibits prose on the level of a wordy fortune cookie. >We come to Example 3, “Flower” (above). A run-down city apartment has a single flower on the sill, which leads the player into a natural landscape. The game is “about trying to find a balance between elements of urban and the natural.” Nothing she shows from this game seemed of more than decorative interest on the level of a greeting card. Is the game scored? She doesn’t say. Do you win if you’re the first to find the balance between the urban and the natural? Can you control the flower? Does the game know what the ideal balance is? >These three are just a small selection of games, she says, “that crossed that boundary into artistic expression.” IMHO, that boundary remains resolutely uncrossed. “Braid” has had a “great market impact,” she says, and “was the top-downloaded game on XBox Live Arcade.” All of these games have received “critical acclaim.” >Now she shows stills from early silent films such as George Melies’ “A Voyage to the Moon” (1902), which were “equally simplistic.” Obviously, I’m hopelessly handicapped because of my love of cinema, but Melies seems to me vastly more advanced than her three modern video games. He has limited technical resources, but superior artistry and imagination. >These days, she says, “grown-up gamers” hope for games that reach higher levels of “joy, or of ecstasy….catharsis.” These games (which she believes are already being made) “are being rewarded by audiences by high sales figures.” The only way I could experience joy or ecstasy from her games would be through profit participation. >The three games she chooses as examples do not raise my hopes for a video game that will deserve my attention long enough to play it. They are, I regret to say, pathetic. I repeat: “No one in or out of the field has ever been able to cite a game worthy of comparison with the great poets, filmmakers, novelists and poets.” >Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care. >Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Then let them say it, if it makes them happy. >I allow Sangtiago the last word. Toward the end of her presentation, she shows a visual with six circles, which represent, I gather, the components now forming for her brave new world of video games as art. The circles are labeled: Development, Finance, Publishing, Marketing, Education, and Executive Management. I rest my case.
>>1061254 >That doesn't mean it's good art, though. Essentially what I meant, a single berserk manga screenshot on 2 hours of film you have to sit through and experience isn't good art for the medium either, like a no-commentary walkthrough could replace for some games like donkey kong. By making it a game, the player feels accomplishment, the developer designed the experience, but rote repeatability is a demerit on the game being art in a medium of interactivity.
>>1061277 >like a no-commentary walkthrough could replace for some games like donkey kong. Bad example. A no-commentary walkthrough can replace games that are all about story and not gameplay. Donkey Kong has a story, but the gameplay is very much the focus. You do not at all get the same experience by just watching it. But The Last of Us? Yeah, you can probably just watch that. >but rote repeatability is a demerit on the game being art in a medium of interactivity. I wouldn't say solvability is a demerit on something being art. This implies randomized games are more artistic than non-randomized games, and if anything, I'd argue the opposite, since they're less designed, and I'd argue the design is what makes it art. (But even randomized games are still designed and are still art.) And even once a game is "solved," not only is there still usually great challenge in playing it in the solved fashion, but even if there wasn't, there would still be the interactivity of interpretation, as other media have. Only now you are not just interpreting the pictures and sound, but also the more direct forms of interactivity, even if you've "solved" it. You could solve the movements but not the interpretations.
>>1061328 You haven't fully experienced a game until you've destroyed it. It's meant to be interacted with, unlike a painting or movie :^)
>>1061586 Paintings and movies are also meant to be interacted with, just not quite as much. Destroying it is also interacting with it and experiencing it. It's frowned upon since you're ruining it for other people, but it's still a way of experiencing the art.
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>>1059497 I'm going to ignore your post because Ebert was a bit of a fag and his site hosts the most retarded review of Island of Dogs ever made (https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/isle-of-dogs-2018 if you're curious), and will instead say that a lot of the people shitting themselves about how "games are a real art" always hype up games for their cinematic storytelling instead of the part of games that actually makes the game a fucking game. Hotline Miami, Lobotomy Corporation, and Helldivers have way stronger claims to being models of "games as art" than Chrono Trigger, Braid, and Ori.
>>1062797 >Hotline Miami, Lobotomy Corporation, and Helldivers have way stronger claims to being models of "games as art" than Chrono Trigger Don't you get tired of saying stupid shit?
>>1062797 People only remember Braid anymore for how butthurt the creator got hearing Soulja Boy shitting on his game.
>>1061159 >All crafts are art. A carpenter is an artist. <Using the original definition of art Muh man. >>1061222 >Horny VNs full of seggs aren't made by some japanese madman's wild benisslaps on a keyboard during a drunk friday night Reality is very cruel.
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>can video games be art? Yes. Roger ebert was a hack. Complete loser btw.
Vidya is art both as an artisan craft of cultural excellence and the typical pretentious hack fauxlisophical definition. Just shove the MGS2 speech where two Japanese writers predicted the modern state of internet discourse through educated guesses in 2002 into normalfags' faces and it will blow their minds, it's something no film in the same time period anticipated. This is the same game where you played as a naked feminine guy doing cartwheels and you're supposed to laugh, and the entire franchise is just James Bond with cyberpunk trappings. Given enough time it will mutate into the twenty-first century's 1984. It's already being studied in university courses, as much a scam as higher education is these days.
>>1063089 Deus ex did something similar
Video games have an interactive component that separates them from most other art. OP posted pics that are just absolutely bog standard games that look pretty. I guess have your own art style means "video games are art". Getting Over It with Bennett Foddy is an example of at least using the interaction to try to express something. To try to make the player actually think and feel about what's going on rather than sit back and enjoy the vistas. I don't think it succeeds in that regard wholeheartedly but at least it has a go. Can't anyone think of any examples of games that actually use the fact that they're games to do something expressive rather than just have a good story or visuals? Where's all the artistic interaction?
>>1059607 >diminutive of the herculean effort that all fronts take to produce a single high quality game I guess call of duty 28 is a momentous display of human expression and creativity -.- idiot
>>1063200 Dwarf Fortress
"Are games art?" is the kind of question that keeps pseudointellectuals up at night. Art is money laundering, so the question can be answered "yes" for some AAA games and "no" for everything else.
>>1063228 That often comes to my mind for this situation but it is a bit of well known answer. Dwarf Fortress has enough complexity to truly create interesting stories. Do you know of something not as well known?
You fags didn't read the whole thing - >Why are gamers so intensely concerned, anyway, that games be defined as art? Bobby Fischer, Michael Jordan and Dick Butkus never said they thought their games were an art form. Nor did Shi Hua Chen, winner of the $500,000 World Series of Mah Jong in 2009. Why aren’t gamers content to play their games and simply enjoy themselves? They have my blessing, not that they care. >Do they require validation? In defending their gaming against parents, spouses, children, partners, co-workers or other critics, do they want to be able to look up from the screen and explain, “I’m studying a great form of art?” Ebert straight up says "why do you desperately want it to be called art?" to the critics themselves. And he gives the answer "because you want validation from others". Ebert wasn't the faggot, Kelee Santiago was. By showing crud like Braid (pretentious game made by a one and done guy), flower (cool wallpaper viewer), and other movie games. All these have one thing in common - they are PASSIVE MEDIA. Meant for one-way consumption and doesn't require any work, just like traditional static arts. That these art critics adore. Just like an athlete performing a good routine or a player playing a good game, or a skateboarding kid, parkour, chess, baseball, woodworking etc. don't call themselves as "art", yet its enjoyed, replicated and praised as its own thing. These artfags will never know the joys of jumping a ledge and throwing a ball perfectly. Let video games be in the league of ACTIVE MEDIA and talk about its strength. Which video game has the best active joy?
>>1063617 Ebert made a lot of great points people completely ignore because it's easier to pretend he said something he didn't. He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks, that's much harder to argue against that "hurr boomer don't like da bideo james". >Braid I'll always maintain Braid is a legitimately fun puzzle platformer with a creator way up his own ass and an industry that tried way to hard to pretend it was "important". The game itself isn't even pretentious besides for the ending, maybe. I remember playing it without knowledge of the paratext and thinking it was just a fun little indie. But something I haven't seen heard anybody talk about ITT is how this "Are games art?" discussion largely died off in the wider gaming sphere over a decade ago. It was really active in that 2008-2013 psued era where many journos and devs desperately wanted to be taken seriously, you'd see random sophomoric indie flash games held up as "srs art 4 srs gamerz" because you walked around with sad music instead of shooting a gun. Now that vidya is by far the biggest medium in the world they don't seem to care as much. Actors play games, musicians play games, authors play games; they've become an accepted part of culture without the question ever really being answered. I think that answer will, eventually, become "yes". If there was any good point Santiago made, it was that video games were simply too young to have done anything.
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>>1063633 >He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks Uh, YEAH, because your video game needs to be capable of making money so that you can continue making video games. Film companies do the exact same thing because we all live in this little things called REALITY. And in reality, you have to pay for your shit. We don't live in a world where you can shit out whatever creation you want and automatically get paid for it. Over 200+ countries have tried that system over the past century and every single one of them has failed.
>>1063633 The reason why "are games art?" mostly died off is twofold. First is the practical reason for having games be "art", legal protection from government censorship, has been secured in the US. The second is the insecure pretentious fuckwits are now calling the shots. They already think the shit they make is art, so the 'debate' is needless in their eyes.
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>>1063637 <doesn't even know the context of the conversation <starts posting like a sperg The other anon was right, you people don't read. Ebert was saying that in relation to a talk that was specifically about games as art.
>>1063641 It sounds like a retarded robot given the context has nothing to do with the conversation
>>1063641 >>1063649 Should developers just make whatever game they want, regardless of the financial consequences, because "They're an artist and it would be 'bad' to hinder their ability to create their work"?
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>>1063641 >>1063649 It's a terminal lolbert, please ignore it
>>1063651 I'm pretty sure it's a retarded robot.
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>>1063651 >>1063656 Is that the new tactic these days? If anyone says something your don't like or brings up a point you don't want to address, gaslight the conversation by exclusive refering to the person as your personal boogieman such as a "bot" or a "lolbert" in this particular case. That really stimulates a conversation, doesn't it?
>>1063617 >skateboarding kid You know it's interesting that you bring up skateboarding but Ebert didn't. Ebert did bring up dancing, and is skateboarding, at least when it's for tricks and not a race, not essentially dancing? Just like figure skating is ice dancing. Even by Ebert's definition, skateboarding should definitely be considered an art. The "sport" is in convincing judges that your dance is better than other dances. Parkour and woodworking are the same. There is objectivity in that you don't want to slam your face into the concrete while doing parkour, and you want your table to be stable, but really what makes good parkour or woodworking is beauty. That's what people are actually judging, beyond your ability to simply not fuck up. If a dance is a work of art, then these things are certainly art. I'd also argue games with more concrete goals, like chess and baseball, are art, but for a different reason than things that are literally judged for their beauty, like skateboarding. But your point (and one of Ebert's points) that you shouldn't care if you are called "art" has merit. However, sometimes it's appropriate to simply argue over the actual use of language, for its own sake. For the sake of having consistent definition, these things are certainly art, not that it matters to how good or important they are. >Active media Still art. But yes I agree with you that the video games that are the best examples of their artistic medium are the ones that utilize their actual interactivity effectively. And when you say "which video game has the best active joy?" you're actually coming back to the actual most important question in video games. "Which games are the most fun?" Because at the end of the day, that's what it comes down to, and that's what it's always come down to. And little kids intuitively know it. And these pretentious retards like the one Ebert was critiquing are so obsessed with looking grown up that they miss the obvious truth. They try to come up with new words and a bunch of rambling gobbledygook to justify what every little kid knows. The best video games are the ones that are the most fun. >>1063633 >He criticized developers for being more interested in finance and marketing than the actual art of their supposed artworks, that's much harder to argue against that "hurr boomer don't like da bideo james". Yeah but he's a film critic. It's not like his industry isn't the same. And it needs to be. That's life. These things cost money to make and you gotta get the money from somewhere. The problem is when they de-prioritize the actual artistic value so much that the product isn't even worth buying. At a certain point, art is profitable. You need to prioritize it to at least a certain degree or else people won't buy it. A movie/video game/whatever needs to actually be at least sort of good, or all your marketing won't actually save it, or won't be as profitable as if it was good. >Now that vidya is by far the biggest medium in the world Wasn't it by far the biggest medium in the world since like the late '90s or early 2000s? I could have sworn I remembered hearing how it vastly outpaced hollywood back then. >>1063641 The point you're mad at was completely legitimate, and your reply didn't discount from its legitimacy at all. Things cost money, and just saying that the people making them care about money doesn't mean they're not art. To say so would discount almost every work of art you or Ebert has ever heard of, and he loves plenty of Hollywood garbage made for money. Because though it's made for money, some of it is still pretty good, at least in his opinion. >>1063649 >>1063651 >>1063656 >guy criticizes art for being made for money >Anon points out that things cost money and there isn't any way around it >You get mad at say it has nothing to do with the conversation. You guys are so fucking retarded it almost looks like you're doing it on purpose, but it's been a long time since Poe's Law came into effect around here.
>>1063633 That's nothing new. I believed the thread thinking ebert was doing something boomer for days. It was only today that I read rest of the OP and realized Santiago was the mega faggot. I don't discord them. I think that 2013 journo discussion about vidya is art guys, largely died after release of Bioshock Infinite. They rallied hard after that game and after its success they had their win and milded out >>1063673 True. Just like sports, vidya is its own thing. Sportspersons don't care about being called art, why should we?
>>1063673 And if I may get pretentious autistic, I'd like to say Learn 2 Fly, this little flash game, is one of the best example of video game doing something other "art" don't do - give a sense of progressive achievement. Towards an impossible goal of making a penguin fly, via making the progress fun. Its engaging players by showing the art of impossible progress. That's an fun experience worthy of being labled as "art". If it was a black and white movie with Tilda Swinton playing the penguin and breaking the iceberg was a metaphor for feminism or some shit, it would be dick sucked constantly for 3years minimum
>>1063617 But that's not really an argument. >"why do you desperately want it to be called art?" to the critics themselves. And he gives the answer "because you want validation from others". Why does a guy want his fecal smears on canvas to be called art? Is it for any reason other than cash or validation? Isn't the notion of validating something an intrinsic aspect of calling something art? What reason is there to care if anything is considered art otherwise? >active media Is jazz art?
Art is an expression of creativity. Vidya gaems are an expression of creativity. Therefore, vidya gaems are art. /thread. Now let me ask you a question: Why do you care?
Artists all deserve the rope, whether they rope themselves or get someone else to do it. Artists have degenerative brain disorders that make it physically impossible for them to to form a coherent thought that isn't up its own ass upon conception. This mental dysfunction such stress on the artist's mind that the only way to cope with the surrounding world is to degenerate everything around them to fall into these deranged philosophies. They often see things that are "childish" or not expressly in service to "art" and become incensed; the first thought an artist will have upon seeing someone enjoying those "non-art" aspects of something is to first make it clear that "this thing can NEVER be taken seriously as long as people appreciate these things" as though the statue of David or Mozart's 5th symphony are any less beautiful because they are enjoyed on a level beyond awe for the joy of creation; most people do not create in a way that is perceptible, and thus is the self-induced delusion of the artist. An artist observes the world as black and white, the black being those who consume, and white, those who create. In reality, a lot of people do create, or have some creative thoughts, but don't tap into them in day to day lives. It is the ignorant artist who goes out of his way to inform the world that they are, instead, solely responsible for holding creativity and culture on their back, as though they themselves have become as god. Artists are tyrants in this way, enforcing strict standards, oppressing those who call their creations for what they are, and seek to refuse those who do not create in the express way they do from outlining any standard of critique against them. The artist has never gummed their hands with dirt or grime, and thus do not understand the workers of the world that they create on the backs of, and so it lends to their absurd world view that the only true path is creation, and all others are falsehoods. They believe they are above any system, they believe there is no price or coin that could be exchanged for their intellect, and there is no greater struggle than that of an artist. They simultaneously believe in a fantasy that all others can live their dreams, but for the artist their dream is shunned and oppressed by society, and there is no profit to be made; if they truly cared about art for the love of it then they would die before their works alone in the world. In the eyes of an artist, everyone else is simply imagining themselves as highly as they possibly can, and back to the artist's pompous attitude, the artists undoubtedly believes that the clerk whom the artist shuffles supplies beneath their nose is simply not capable of thoughts big enough to imagine a higher goal. This absurd world the artist spins for themselves becomes a dystopia for themselves, since everyone else is able to freely live their dreams, but the artist, who dreams of creation for creation's sake, is met with the harsh reality that simple creation is no a unique talent, or worse yet, they believe their creation is underappreciated by the weak and meek masses who simply do not have the brains to understand creation. The deny their own reality, supplanting a falsehood that consumes them until they die. For this reason, I think the artist deserves it. The artist has worked tirelessly to die, and that should be readily provided to them. If they wish to live in a world ruled by only their thoughts, they may be ruled by those thoughts in a long and endless sleep run from a red river down their arms. They wish to be a tyrant; little king, you may stamp your feet as a ghost all you like, and think yourself the king of cosmos. God, and all, they wish to be, and so they may become a god of a far away place hereafter. I say all this, and it is with great hatred and evil in my very soul, that I think artistry for its own sake is nonsense in the same way that creating a cup when you have nothing to drink is foolhardy. I reject the notion that anything should be labeled as art, because it does nothing to define the work, and even less than genre titles. It's as compelling to call two things art as it is to simply inform someone that Billy Ray Cyrus and Robert Plant are both singers; are we to assume that all these things are created equally? Is something that is made badly suddenly not considered art? Is something that is created well to be considered art, or is it only middle-tiered works that do not inspire at all? Who decides what is good or bad? Is objective reasoning the only observation that may be made for art's quality, or are there personal, subjective aspects that make the quality differ from person to person? Art itself is as outdated a term, and describes such a vague concept that if you were to ask someone off the street what art is, their answer would certainly be something similar to, "something that makes you feel a certain way," and will become confused if you ask them if a particularly brutal shit you took is considered art. Fuck art, fuck artists, and this discussion is not video games.
>why even ask this question I can think of better questions, which avoid the word "art." >are games cringe? >do games change the way you think about life? >would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? These get at the actual issue, which is about ego and perceived immaturity, both of the medium and the people who enjoy it. It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game like Soul Calibur III would be absurd. Should expectations be that low? Should games get a free pass to have shitty writing because "it's about the gameplay?" Of course, the medium since "grew up" into the shitshow it is now, so the writing is not only shitty, but also pretentious. The medium has all the potential of its constituent parts, but if that potential is only realized in rare instances that never reach the mainstream, what should people think of a stack of little plastic cases in a man's living room?
>>1072641 >are games cringe? Not really, but people can make them cringe. >do games change the way you think about life? Sometimes. >would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? No, because games aren't intended for that purpose. They can grant insights, teach lessons and help at rough times in life through enjoyment, entertainment and fun, but they are not a replacement for living life yourself and having good people in your life. Unless you wanted to put him on the path of becoming a game developer or something, then that would make sense. No piece of media can make a person "grow up" on their own, at best they can maybe indirectly push him towards it at a time when he would be receptive towards such messages, but the person still has to make the conscious choice to do so. As an interesting side note: I will say though that there was a point in time that I didn't have any games on an Exbawks 360 besides NBA 2K9 and some other assorted trash, and that somehow ended up getting me interested in basketball and actually playing it outside, which was a healthy thing since I had zero interest in sports before that point. >It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game like Soul Calibur III would be absurd. Should expectations be that low? Should games get a free pass to have shitty writing because "it's about the gameplay?" Fighting games have never really had good writing, but people don't play fighting games for the writing. Someone could theoretically change that by making some well-written fighting game, but there are difficulties in doing something like that because the formats for most fighting games are not conducive to telling a good story. (e.g. arcade-style progression for story modes).
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>>1072641 >It was certainly the case ten 20 years ago that expecting anything beyond bland, grade-school level writing from a game would be absurd. Legacy of Kain? FF6? Silent Hill 2? The potential's been there for decades. >if that potential is only realized in rare instances that never reach the mainstream, what should people think of a stack of little plastic cases in a man's living room? How many films out there reach the peak of film as an artform's potential? 90% of the movies in your collection probably have trash elements about them as well. Sturgeon's law doesn't just apply to games, it applies to everything, and that's not a good reason to write off the medium as a whole. >>1072647 >>would you give a game to your son to help him grow into a man? >No, because games aren't intended for that purpose You're not a real man until you've played Senran Kagura imo.


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